2023 454B Transition.
Starting in 2023, does all new system installations have to be 454. You cant rip at a 410 and put a 410 back in as new install?
The manufactures WILL find a way around the regulations.
Post Likes - 1 Likes, 0 Dislikes
Probably do the same as they did with 22. Slow down production of the 410a equipment over the next few years and then slow down the production of the gas.
Officially, Down for the count
YOU HAVE TO GET OFF YOUR ASS TO GET ON YOUR FEET
I know enough to know, I don't know enoughWhy is it that those who complain the most contribute the least?
MONEY CAN'T BUY HAPPINESS. POVERTY CAN'T BUY ANYTHINGPost Likes - 1 Likes, 0 Dislikes
My understanding is that all new equipment made after that date will be using the new refrigerant. If you can find 410A equipment that should still be installable after that date.
Also has 454B been decided? I thought there were still some other contenders like 32 and a couple of others.
I think 410A is not scheduled for a phase out but a phase down so supplies will go down and the price will probably go up but should still continue to be available.
Post Likes - 1 Likes, 0 Dislikes
Possibly sell "dry equipment" that could use 410A?
With the R-22 phase out, IIRC manf could not ship equipment containing R-22.
So getting a "dry" cond unit would save changing out inside coil and perhaps complete system.Post Likes - 1 Likes, 0 Dislikes
No federal regulation has been passed yet banning R-410A equipment. A few states, including California will ban it starting January 1, 2025. The federal government is predicted to target that same date as well when it does get around to passing its regulation.
2023 is what they originally planned. That has been shelved. The states needed more time to update their building codes to accommodate flammable refrigerant. In 2023 the new efficiency regulations will take effect - but R-410A will still be the refrigerant used.
There are no plans to ever ban the production of R-410A entirely, but over time the production allowances for all HFC's, weighted by global warming potential, including R-410A, will ratchet down. So the price will likely go up over time. How much it goes up will depend on whether the other supply chain/tariff factors currently driving the price up ease, and how strong the demand still is for R-410A in 5, 10, 15, etc. years.
Post Likes - 2 Likes, 0 Dislikes
What about the new minimum SEER rating by region. Is it illegal to install lower SEER. What is everyone who has surplus of present allowed SEER rated equipment going to do?
Below are the future minimum efficiency standards, effective January 1, 2023.
2023 REGIONAL EFFICIENCIES FOR SPLIT AC, SPLIT HP AND PACKAGED UNITS
EFFECTIVE DATES 1/1/2023 AND AFTER
Product Type Region Governing Date
for Change Capacity Splits [BTU] SEER2 EER2 HSPF2
Split AC
North Manufactured on or after 13.4
Southeast Installed on or after < 45K
≥ 45K
14.3
13.8
Southwest Installed on or after
< 45K 14.3 11.7*
≥ 45K 13.8 11.2*
Split HP All Manufactured on or after 14.3 7.5
Packaged AC
North/Southeast Manufactured on or after 13.4
Southwest Installed on or after 13.4 10.6
Packaged HP All Manufactured on or after 13.4 6.7
*9.8 EER2 if SEER2 ≥ 15.2 These changes apply ONLY to single phase in 2023. Three phase will be addressed in 2025.
SPLIT AC
13.4 SEER2
SPLIT HP
PACKAGED AC
13.4 SEER2
PACKAGED HP
NORTH
14.3
SEER2
7.5
HSPF2
13.4
SEER2
6.7
HSPF2
Split < 45K BTU
Split ≥ 45K BTU
14.3 SEER2
13.8 SEER2
SPLIT AC
SPLIT HP
14.3
SEER2
7.5
HSPF2
SOUTHEAST
PACKAGED HP
13.4
SEER2
6.7
HSPFGot this at one of the HVAC trade shows this year - probably at AHR.
Post Likes - 1 Likes, 0 Dislikes
I'd expect plenty of 410. Rheem & Trane have their 2023 14 SEER units on their dealer site with 410. They'll likely be a model or 2 of the new stuff as someone will just have to get one.
Post Likes - 1 Likes, 0 Dislikes
What exactly is the EPA's problem with R410? I thought it was not an ozone depleter? If the new refrigerants are a tad more efficient, fine, make that a users choice. But why ban R410 and screw the consumers again with forced system replacements?
If someone installs an R410 system today, which is the only option today, how long before are they in the same R22 situation we have now? That being R410 only available as recycled and super expensive?
Post Likes - 1 Likes, 0 Dislikes
- Originally Posted by MR_D
What exactly is the EPA's problem with R410? I thought it was not an ozone depleter? If the new refrigerants are a tad more efficient, fine, make that a users choice. But why ban R410 and screw the consumers again with forced system replacements?
If someone installs an R410 system today, which is the only option today, how long before are they in the same R22 situation we have now? That being R410 only available as recycled and super expensive?
Correct it's not an ozone depleter. The reason is GWP - global warming potential. They act as greenhouse gases. CO2 is considered to have a GWP of 1. 410A has a GWP of 2088. The proposed new refrigerants have very low GWP. Post Likes - 1 Likes, 0 Dislikes
- Originally Posted by szw21
Correct it's not an ozone depleter. The reason is GWP - global warming potential. They act as greenhouse gases. CO2 is considered to have a GWP of 1. 410A has a GWP of 2088. The proposed new refrigerants have very low GWP.
But the requirement to recover still stands. So what's the problem? - Originally Posted by MR_D
But the requirement to recover still stands. So what's the problem?
I'm guessing the effects of leaks. If you consider all the HVAC and refrigeration equipment worldwide that leak something into the atmosphere I imagine it would be a huge number. Post Likes - 1 Likes, 0 Dislikes
R600a liked this post.- Originally Posted by MR_D
What exactly is the EPA's problem with R410? I thought it was not an ozone depleter? If the new refrigerants are a tad more efficient, fine, make that a users choice. But why ban R410 and screw the consumers again with forced system replacements?
If someone installs an R410 system today, which is the only option today, how long before are they in the same R22 situation we have now? That being R410 only available as recycled and super expensive?
Trane carrier Lennox Goodman etc greased the pockets at DOE and energy star to make sure there are processes in place to keep new ac units rolling of the line.Worked on a 1998 yesterday still works great. That�s new units that should have been sold to that house in that time frame�.. since 22 is now �illegal� as I have heard some say, it�s easier to push a sale.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
- Originally Posted by szw21
I'm guessing the effects of leaks. If you consider all the HVAC and refrigeration equipment worldwide that leak something into the atmosphere I imagine it would be a huge number.
Then penalize trane goodman carrier for making crap indoor coils that leak all the refrigerant out�.I find very few leaks that are result of workmanship
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
- Originally Posted by jbhenergy
Then penalize trane goodman carrier for making crap indoor coils that leak all the refrigerant out….
I find very few leaks that are result of workmanship
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Those crappy coils were mandated to save energy! Post Likes - 1 Likes, 0 Dislikes
R600a liked this post.
What refrigerant will Lennox use in 2023?
Beginning next year, new cooling systems will contain a refrigerant called R-454b with a lower global warming potential. This refrigerant is more environment-friendly than its predecessors but also mildly flammable. You can rest assured our ACS Air Conditioning Services technicians know how to handle it safely.
Additional benefits. Lennox' highest efficiency cooling systems are designed to use R-410A refrigerant, therefore providing an economic benefit in addition to the environmental benefit.
In 2023, the new minimum efficiency standards for heat pumps will increase by 1.0 SEER to 15.0 SEER. Split-system heat pumps must also achieve a minimum of 8.8 HSPF. Any 14.0 SEER heat pump built before January 1, 2023, can still be installed on or after January 1, 2023.
The leading replacement for R-410A refrigerant is a pure, single component refrigerant called R-32, which has one-third the global warming potential of R‑410A. Some products with this next generation refrigerant have already been introduced in the United States.